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Ep 2.23 - Having Hope when You Can't See What God's Doing

In today's episode I chat with licensed professional counselor Julia Hogan-Werner about her new book A Work in Progress: Embracing the Life God Gave You (available here: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Progress-Embracing-Life-Gave/dp/1681926342/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1646258060&sr=8-1) and how we can and should embrace not the life we wish we were living but the one God actually gave us. 

We chat about having hope, holding space for the tension of feeling two things at once, and letting God and our values be the source of continuity in our lives.

 Episode Transcript:

Jill Simons

00:00:01

Hello, and welcome to the authentic uprising show. I'm your host, Jill Simons. I am so excited to grow in the radical art of standing in what God says about you with you today. This show is a place where we pour into our concept of who we are, how we've been created with intention by God and how we can live out of the freedom that he has for us more every single day.

 

Jill Simons

00:00:42

Hello and welcome to today's episode of the authentic uprising podcast as always. I'm your host, Jill Simons, and I love to be with you every single Tuesday. And I'm so excited to share this specific episode with you because the person that I'm gonna be chatting with today is just a really, really beautiful voice in the space of fighting lies for Christian women. And she has a new book out that is so empowering around this lie that we're talking about here in the month of March, but also what we covered in January. And so her new book is called a work in progress. And Julia Hogan Warner is a licensed professional counselor who specializes in helping women really break through these obstacles that they are facing in their lives to embrace the fullness of what God has for them. And that's why I could not be more excited to be chatting with her today. So thank you so much for being with me, Julia.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:01:36

Thanks for having me, Jill. I'm so excited to be here and talk through all of these things highlight of my week, to be honest.

 

Jill Simons

00:01:43

Oh, praise God. Well, that's awesome. So let's get started with talking about what it was that urged you to write this book about being a work in progress.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:01:53

Yes. Yeah. So my first book was all about authentic self care and I felt really passionate about that and that kind of stemmed from a personal experience in my life of just not taking care of myself in college and burning out. And that was not fun. So once I wrote that book, I just had such an amazing experience writing the book and sharing it and I wanted to do something else. So I was thinking about, you know, what other topics do I feel really passionate about? Do I see a need for, and that got me thinking about, you know, all of the, these amazing topics that I had learned GRA in graduate school and then in my adult life that I kind of couldn't believe to be honest, that we hadn't been taught, or at least in my school, we hadn't had any kind of, you know, social, emotional learning on these things.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:02:40

So things as simple as like the concept of boundaries, I had never even heard that before. And then in grad school, it started coming up and then I started reading about it and it was just like eyeopening life changing, right? Oh, this is what a healthy, you know, this is part of a healthy relationship and just, you know, through my own personal work, but then also in working with my clients, seeing all of these kind of skills that seem really obvious to a certain extent in the sense of, yeah, like, you know, setting limits is really healthy in a relationship, or I need to know my values in life in order to know where I'm gonna go and where I wanna head and what kind of decisions I'm gonna be making, or I need to evaluate these expectations that I've just adopted in my life.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:03:27

Where are they coming from? Are they rooted in reality? Are they arbitrary? Are they flat out lies? I have, have I taken the time to evaluate them? So when I was, you know, coming up with this idea for the book, I thought, you know, these are, these are the things I wish I had learned earlier in life. And I wrote it from the perspective of, you know, honestly it can be for anybody at any stage in their life, right? If you're thinking, I wanna learn more about these skills, the book is for you. But I was specifically thinking about young adults, those who are, you know, freshly graduated from college early in their career and maybe are feeling a little bit behind in life that they're thinking, okay, you know, I don't have my dream job yet, or I have no idea what I wanna do with my life.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:04:09

Do I like where I'm living? Do I like my friends? I'm not in a relationship yet? Or I thought, I, you know, I hear this a lot. I thought I would be married and have a couple kids by now or something like that. And so this book is really written for, if you feel like you're in that stage of life and it's very action oriented, very, you know, skills focused. I would say, you know, here are the, here are the things that kind of can help you get a sense of purpose in your life right now, where you are without feeling like your life is just on this, like perpetual until you check off that life event. If that makes sense. So this is the book that I wish I had way back when

 

Jill Simons

00:04:49

I think that that's such a beautiful place to create things from. And that's so much of what I do. And I think that's part of why I always just love talking to you because we are on such like parallel journeys. I think where it's much about what was missing from our experiences of, you know, college life, young adulthood, where I, I resonate so much with that. Like boundaries are a thing. Like I was in my mid twenties before anybody told me about that. And I was like, wow, now everything is already awful. And I need to go back and redo all of this. And this would've been much easier if this had ever been a part of my vocabulary before now. And so I think that that's such a powerful tool to give to people. And I think that that's one of the most beautiful things about women in our season of life, looking at how we can empower the women younger than us, because it's all about that intergenerational wisdom that we've just lost. So many of the avenues for us to share that. And that's

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:05:55

A good point. Yeah. I never thought about it that way actually, but you're right.

 

Jill Simons

00:05:59

It's really a beautiful thing to then get to be a part of. And so your book came out last week and is available on Amazon. And we're gonna be talking today about how there's actionable, actionable things in the book for really about how to approach life when it feels like everything's on hold or this thing isn't going to happen. And what I'd love to start with is talking about finding the balance of really holding space for hope while still accepting what is

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:06:35

Yes. Which can be so hard to do, right. It's a skill, but yes, I think sometimes we feel like we have to, we can only feel one thing, you know, and I'm sure many of the listeners have heard that started to see more about that concept of both and right. That I can be both excited and scared at the same time, or I can be hopeful, but also feeling a little bit, maybe a let you know about something going on in life. So it is really tough to hold those two intention, but I think it is incredibly valuable. Cause life isn't black and white, it isn't all or nothing, right. It isn't perfection or failure. There is that sort of nuance in everything that we do. And I think, especially for feeling like my life is on hold or I'm in a, a tough season of life where things just aren't working out or maybe I feel like I'm at the beginning of my healing journey, right.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:07:26

Where I'm like, oh, this is all terrible. And I'm like in the depth or I can't get any lower and I've gotta climb back out. How do I hold hope when I see everything that I need to do or everything that I need to be healed from. And I, I think that there's this, I think we can kind of in those difficult moments, we can tend in two directions. And I talk about it in my book where we can either go into like control mode where we say, I have to control everything, my environment, my actions, I can never make a mistake. I have to have a say the will say in everything, you know, how people treat me or, you know, how much work I put into something so that I don't like, I'm always kind of running away or trying to stay one step ahead of that fear that everything's gonna fall apart.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:08:14

And that it's not gonna work out how I want it to work out. So there's that end of the spectrum. And on the other end, there's this sort of like off kind of like, I can't, there's nothing I can do about this. And it's like, it's all in God's hands, but more in like a dismissive way, like a fatalistic. There's not, you know, I give up, right. So nothing that I can do can change the outcome of my life and it's, you know, it's already messed up anyway. So I may as well just, you know, I don't know coast, or it's never gonna get any better. Right. But I think both of those operate from more of a scarcity mindset rather than that abundance mindset, right. That there's, you know, a scarcity mindset says there's not enough out there for everybody. There's only a finite amount of goodness or grace, or I don't know success, but not necessarily in like the worldly definition of success, but like li living a meaningful life.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:09:07

And those sorts of things, scarcity mindset says we're all in competition for that. Right. That's one person's success is basically your failure because they got something and now you don't have it, but that can be a really, I think it's a fear driven way to live. And it does not, it kind of closes off that possibility of feeling hopeful because it's already coming from this worldview of there's not enough out there. So how can you hope for something if your belief is there's not enough out there. So an abundance mindset kind of takes those two extremes and brings them into the middle and says, okay, what's within your control, right? That there are things outside of our control and that's okay. Right. We don't have to control everything. Cuz then we just drive ourselves, you know, up a wall trying to control things we can't control.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

00:09:55

And, and then looking at too, what do I need to let go of? Right? What, what am I trying to hold onto that actually isn't serving me or is actually really holding me back. And I think it's in that middle ground that you can find that hope even in the midst of difficulties that you can say, okay, I can focus on what, you know, God is maybe inviting me to and I can let go of what he's inviting me to let go of. And that is where I can find that hope in that middle space. There.

 

Jill Simons

01:10:25

Absolutely. That reminds me as you were initially talking, it reminds me so much of the movie inside out where oh yeah. There's like, I haven't

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:10:34

Seen

 

Jill Simons

01:10:35

You. Haven't seen, oh no. Spoil it for you. I'm sorry. I

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:10:39

Heard it's really good. You can spoil it, go for it. OK.

 

Jill Simons

01:10:43

It's wonderful. And but essentially like the main character reaches sort of a new level of maturity when there's the ability to feel two things at once when there's like a mix of the emotions that become the core of who she is, where it isn't just about, this has to be all happy or this has to be all sad. It's something where she can feel those two things at once. And I, it occurs to me that that that's really a hallmark of her moving into a new level of maturity within the movie. And I think that spiritually there's a lot of us who don't step into the fullness of the maturity available to us, maybe, you know, at our age, even I think that a lot of people's spiritual maturity doesn't necessarily match their chronological age. And so allowing there to be this mix of emotion and feeling in it and still be able to progress and interact with that feeling and have that be something that can be meaningful despite sort of the messiness of it almost.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:11:57

Yeah. I would agree with that because I think that, I think I was when you were talking, it kind of got me thinking about another part in the book where I talk about identifying your values and knowing your priorities and a AIG, like I guess a big theme in the, as chat, both of those chapters is if you know, what's important to you. So kind of to that maturity, you were just speaking to, and if you know what living out, those values looks like on a day to day basis, you can be doing that even in like a messy season of life or a really challenging part of your life or part of your life where you feel like everything's just on hold or you're just, you know, hitting one roadblock after another. But that's sort of like, well, my, if my values are, you know, never changing, if I'm focusing on living my life, according to those values that I've defined for myself in difficult moments and awesome, amazing, fulfilling moments, I'm I can like I'm on the right path, no matter what, right.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:13:01

It kind of removes that lie that we have to achieve, or that we have to do things in order to have a sense of progress or have a sense of worth, right. That we can say, okay, it's not so much what I'm doing. It's how I'm doing these things. How am I approaching, approaching this difficult season? Or how am I approaching a really great season of life, a joyful season too? Am I honoring my values? And if I am, then I'm living that authentic life that we're all searching for, that we all want to live.

 

Jill Simons

01:13:30

And that makes me think about the fact that, you know, cuz what you're really talking about is to that sense of continuity yes. Where things are connected in a meaningful way that you can follow the line of your life, essentially. And as you were talking about that, it made me think that really in a lot of ways, I think God is inviting us into letting him be that sense continuity in our lives where really there's that prevailing awareness that regardless of the season or regardless of what was going on or regardless of how I felt about it, there's an awareness and a relationship with God that carries through that. That also is really that sustaining force of the hope, because I think that's the other place in all of this that people get into trouble is like trying to generate that hope from themselves when life is really challenging. And I think that's what a huge obstacle that they run into then in secular counseling is like O okay, but where is this gonna come from? You know, because there's not necessarily that internal power in those really challenging moments to sustain that kind of hope and faith, that really is a supernatural gift that we believe as Christians we receive just as much as we participate in it.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:15:00

Absolutely. Yes. That's I mean, so like, well, so well said better than I could even say it you're absolutely right. I think, you know, we, we can't, I think sometimes we can get stuck in this mindset that having hope means saying it's all gonna turn out fine. Right. Everything's gonna be okay. But the reality is sometimes it in sort of, I guess how we might define being okay. Right. Sometimes it's not sometimes things end or we get news that we like is our worst fear. And, but it is right. A diagnosis of some sort, a relationship ending, you know, someone passing away, those are all like even losing your job. Right. Really difficult moments that we just, I mean, we don't wanna ever go through, but then we're faced with them. And I think sometimes we can confuse hope with, I have to believe everything's gonna be fine and it's all gonna turn.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:15:57

Okay. But again, back to that idea of holding that tension right. To be able, like you said, to access that deeper supernatural sense of hope that says this is not, oh, what's a good way of the putting it like kinda, it's not so much what happens. It's how I navigate what I'm given. Right. And I always, I talk about this book all the time and search for meaning because it's just so good. Right. And the whole point of his book is that if you have a reason for living your life, it can get you through anything. And I love the book. I think it's so powerful because he is not just some professor writing from like an ivory tower, right? Like this is a man who was imprisoned in a concentration camp, lost his wife, saw people die around him, went through incredible suffering. And he's the one who says, if you have meaning you can navigate anything. Right. And he makes the point in the book. It's not, if you have hope you'll survive, it's, you'll find meaning even in the most difficult circumstances and that's like a meaningful life, right. Or that's where God meets you in those moments, not in the success or the stereotypical like blessing. Right. But more in the, you know, those really challenging moments and how you choose to handle them. I think that's where that supernatural hope can blossom.

 

Jill Simons

01:17:24

Absolutely. That's by Victor Frankel, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. That's what I thought. So

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:17:28

Good. If anybody hasn't read it, it's not long at all. It is just the best.

 

Jill Simons

01:17:33

Yeah. Yeah. I of loved that book as well, because I think that that is one of the places where this lie gets so entrenched in our mindsets because when you look at our cultural approach to hard things, it's so contrary to this, I think that the vast majority of people who advocate for a lot of the measures that they wanna put in place to be able to not have a baby, they might be pregnant with not have to live with a chronic or debilitating illness. That's likely to be terminal. Things like that comes from this place of it's impossible for there to be any redeeming value in what's happening right now, because I absolutely cannot see it. And I think that that is something that leads to more and more and more becoming meaningless. When you start down that path of like, well, there's not really meaning in this.

 

Jill Simons

01:18:37

Well, there's not really meaning in that. There's not really meaning in this other thing, you come up with this smaller and smaller and smaller circle of things that, where it feels like, oh, okay, I can be, you know, joyful at peace, happy in this amount of circumstances. And that's what you see so much in the lives of like the rich and famous right, where they have the, what should be this kind of just idyllic existence, where there's still so many instances of addiction, mental health issues, et cetera, because there's still not finding that meaning even in, and just like you said, like the vast blessings of their circumstances. And obviously that's not uniformly the case, but is the case in a lot of situations and looking at how we can take our approach to things really, like you said, the way that we live into all of life, life, that being something that really is almost what redeems these situations, not necessarily in the moment that we're experiencing them, but I think very much in the hindsight of, of re interacting with what has happened to us in life and being able to see this is either who I became because of what I've been through, or this is really the fruit that this challenging situation has brought about in my life.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

01:19:58

Yes. And I think a lot of people experience that where in the moment you're like, this makes no sense, how could this PO how could anything good come out of this? And then, you know, yes, absolutely later in life, you can look back and you can say, I see I grew in that area, right. Or how I had to really let go of something that I was holding onto like a false sense of security or whatever. And I can see how that, you know, made me the person I am today. And I think that it's, it's really hard work. Right. I think that's kind of the point that we're making is it's not, you know, having a hope is not getting like a, I get out of jail free pass or something right. Where it's like, oh no, it's fine. Cuz you have hope it can really be entering into that struggle.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:20:44

And it can be really difficult and really painful and really challenging. And that, again, that's back to that idea of nuance. But I think, you know what we were saying at the beginning that sometimes there can be this like why there's nothing I can do. Right. That I just give up. And I think I see that a lot in a lot of like social media posts, right? Like if someone is you toxic to you or someone is, you know, not giving you energy or someone, you know, or this circumstance in your life is not serving, you let go of it. And of course there's truth to that. Right. But again, there's nuance in everything and that's more, my point is yes, if that someone is, you know, truly toxic and harmful for you, there's no place for them in your life. Right. And that's a time to talk about really hard for boundaries, et cetera.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:21:32

But I think sometimes that can kind of snowball into what you were saying, Jill like, oh, this is a difficult moment. This is too much for me. I can't do this. So I'm just gonna, you know, quit it or I'm gonna, you know, just distance myself from it because I don't wanna deal with that suffering or that hardship. Right. Because it's, it's too much for me. And so sometimes you, you do see that as well. Like this kind of just shut everything down because I don't wanna deal with that suffering, which on one hand is understandable because we're talking about how challenging it is. It can be so scary. And I think, again, that's what, or that hope comes in, right? Because that gives you that resilience or like direction that you can go in those moments rather than feeling like you're just your only option is, you know, either running away or just shutting it completely down.

 

Jill Simons

02:22:23

And I think that so often that hope looks like just if nothing else like having that vision, that someday hindsight is going to explain it. I think of the situation this year. So my oldest son is special needs and was rejected from every school that we tried to get him into this year. And so I'm homeschooling him this year while working full time from the shop. And he has to do CU him in a method. That's not great for him. It's not great work environment for me. And all year, this has been this question of like, okay, really? Like, why is this what we're doing this year? God, like what, what is going on here? And I think that, you know, it's March of this year and I'm like, anytime you wanna like, tell me what we're doing here. That'd be real awesome.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:23:12

Oh,

 

Jill Simons

02:23:12

Waiting because yeah, I still don't really have the vision for that yet. But I think that that is very much where the hope is. It's just like, well, at some point he might be 20 years old, but at some point I'm gonna be like, oh, okay, this is what we really like reaped from this year. That seemed mostly just awful for everybody because that has been the situation or that has been the, the impetus of the hope. I think not that it's going to get any easier to actually do this year, but like really grieving God, the benefit of the doubt honestly, is what it comes down to that like eventually the promises and scripture are gonna be made good that he will work everything to everything together for good, for those that love him and just being like, okay, that is what has been pro honest. I'm gonna go with that despite the fact that I'm not a fan.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:24:11

Yes. But also if you wanna give me some insight, that would yes.

 

Jill Simons

02:24:14

Oh yeah. We're always, always not

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:24:16

Saying, yeah, someone, I heard this analogy somewhere. I Def I didn't come up with it. Maybe you've heard it too. But someone said that when we see our lives, it's like looking at the back of a tapestry, right. Where you see the messy threads, there's no pattern. It makes no sense. It honestly kind of looks like an ugly mess. Right. But that God is seeing me right. Side of the tapestry. Right. So he sees all the colors coming together and connecting, you know, and crossing over here and going over there. And he, you know, doing all of these things and that, you know, even if in this life, we don't fully get to see the tapestry in the next we'll be able to see, and then we'll have the like, oh, this is all making sense, but we do get glimpses of that. And I think that's what you're saying. Like throughout our lives, we get some glimpses of, oh, I'm seeing how, like, there's no way I could have known that this would've worked out the way it was or that this would've helped me later in life, like who would've thought, but here I am and I can come from a place of gratitude seeing how, you know, God worked his in our lives even in way, especially in ways that, you know, we, as humans would be like, that doesn't make any sense. I don't wanna do that. Or why, why am I doing this?

 

Jill Simons

02:25:31

And I think that's where it's so powerful in the old Testament, they talk about like having, encouraging the people of Israel to have like these stones that they place to like have the memory of what God has done for them in different places. And I think that that's such a powerful, personal practice to adopt is really like, okay, where is like, where can I draw the evidence from in my life that this is reasonable? Because I mean, and I'm sure you know, much more about this than I do as a therapist, but kind of our brains will reject things that seem unreasonable or seem unsafe. And so if trying to, again, personally generate this hope from a place of scarcity, from a place of this, doesn't actually make any sense. There's gonna be such a mental struggle around that. Versus if we're able to really look back of the story of our own lives, maybe the lives of people that we love and know our parents, our spouse, our sibling, things like that and say, okay, but here's the, the really clear evidence in hindsight that I have of where God has been faithful, where I have seen in hindsight, the good things coming from it and, and making that something that you actually like, you know, whether it's a written record of it, or if it's, you know, whatever method of recording that so that you actually have something to go to to kind of restore that hope in hard moments.

 

Jill Simons

02:26:59

Oh yeah. So that it's not coming from this like illogical place

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:27:05

Or like feeling forced, right. Or, yeah. I love that idea actually. It's like a gratitude journal, but like on steroids. Right?

 

Jill Simons

02:27:15

Exactly.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:27:17

Yeah. And I think you, I think it's, we kind of, I think when we think of God acting in our lives, we can get stuck in this mindset of, it has to be like a miracle, right. Or like the heavens opening and a lightning bolt coming down from the sky. Those things have not happened to me. I dunno, that means, but we miss those little things. That's more my point, right. Is those moments like maybe you're in a really difficult part of your life and that's doesn seem like it's gonna change, but you experience the support or kindness of a neighbor or a friend or a family member. Right. Who's accompanying you through that. Or someone reaches out to you or someone I don't know, sends you a kind note and they have no idea what's going on. Right. Like all of those things too, I think can go on a list like that of moments where I I'm seeing sort of like how everything is, is connected and God can work through people. And not just these big lightning bolt moments. It's the back to the old Testament when God is in the, the wind, right. When he speaks to Moses, it's that quiet, whisper. I always love that passage cuz I'm like, we're always looking for the big and we, I think to be open more to those quiet moments.

 

Jill Simons

02:28:29

Absolutely. And I think that a lot of the things that really are functional miracles still come across that way. Like when I was pregnant with my first child, we literally could not diaper this baby. Like we had, there was no money to make this child live and we were,

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:28:48

I thought you meant he was resistant to be, oh

 

Jill Simons

02:28:51

No. Yeah. So he was, I mean, we had no resources to bring to bear at the time. And so that was very much the prayer of the pregnancy was like, well, okay, I guess you want him to live? So you're gonna have to take care of him. God. And what happened actually is my husband was teaching middle school and the parents were like, well, we'd like to do something for you. They threw a diaper drive. And our oldest or our second child was almost two before we ever bought a single diaper. We, we didn't buy diapers at all with our first child until our second child was two. And that, that is something that I think it's so clearly like, yes, that is a miracle that we received. But yet it's so easy when I don't think about it in that context to be like, oh, well what if God doesn't provide for our family? It's like, okay, he's kind of like gone to the lengths before. And

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:29:42

I remember, remember those two years are probably longer like three,

 

Jill Simons

02:29:46

Right. It was, it was like five,

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:29:49

Oh my gosh, your whole like house supposed have been full.

 

Jill Simons

02:29:53

You know, we had diapers at my mother-in-laws at my parents. Like it was, yeah.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

02:29:59

It's like the loaves in the fishes was this feeding of the 5,000. It's like someone throws you a diaper drive and then all of a sudden you're, oh my gosh, that's an amazing story. I

 

Jill Simons

03:30:09

Love that. Yeah. Yeah. And it was such, I mean, it was such a gift, but it's one of those things where things mean what we make them mean and you, that could happen. That did happen to us. And at that point in our lives, there was still so much like, okay, but that was a one off. Like there's still not that like comprehensive attitude of trust. That is the invitation when those things happen. Whereas now at this point in my life, I do make a practice of like, let's remember these things. Let's talk about out these things. Let's tell the story over and over again. Oh yeah. So that I hear it over and over again so that I remember that this is what the Lord has done for me.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

03:30:52

Yeah. I love that because we do, we have, I, we just naturally have, well a, I would say confirmation bias. Right. So if we think that nothing will work out, then we look for the things that tell us nothing will work out. Right. But if we say, no, I don't understand how, or I don't know why, but God's gonna show me the way then we're looking for that. Sometimes I'll share it with my clients. I'll say, I think it's, oh, it's one of the baseball movies and I'm not gonna remember which one, maybe Angel's in the outfield where they say, if you've build it, they will come. Yep. Do you know what I'm talking

 

Jill Simons

03:31:25

About? I do. Well, no, it's it's field of dream

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

03:31:28

Of dreams. Yeah.

 

Jill Simons

03:31:28

Because I'm from Iowa.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

03:31:30

OK. Yes. Perfect. Yeah. So I'll often use that phrase with my clients and I'll say you have to build it. Right. You have to make room for it. And then that grace will come in or that answer will come in or the next step or the direction, or maybe it feels like a tiny bread crumb that will come. But if you don't make room for it in the sense of widening your perspective or letting go of that confirmation bias, you're even gonna see it. Right. It's gonna come. And it's like maybe the diaper drive. And you said, no, I don't, I don't wanna put that pressure on the families. You know, they already have their own struggles. Please know, we don't want that from you. Right. Maybe God's like, well, that was, that was for you.

 

Jill Simons

03:32:09

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Julia. It has been such a joy. Give us your book information one more time before we wrap up.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

03:32:19

Sure. Yes. Thank you for having me as always. So you can find the book through major places. So obviously on Amazon, you can go and there's a paperback version. There's also a Kindle version. If you are more of a digital reader and then you can also go on our Sunday visitor's website. So the publisher's website, and then you can also on my website, which is Julia Marie Hogan dot com. If you wanna signed copy, I sign it. And then I send some fun stickers with it too. So if you're wanting a signed copy, you can always order from my website, but order from the place that's most convenient for you. I say that's the way to go.

 

Jill Simons

03:32:56

Awesome. Sounds good. We have the Amazon link in the notes so you can check out there if you want, but the stickers and the sign sound really fun. So I think I would personally go to your personal website and grab it. I

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

03:33:08

Also have, you can't really see it, but I have my little work in progress, sweatshirt for sale too, on the website. So if you want a little reminder, you know, for your wardrobe, you can also pick one up on my website there.

 

Jill Simons

03:33:19

Love it. Thank you so much for being with me. I hope you have a great week.

 

Julia Hogan-Werner

03:33:23

Thanks. You too, Jill.

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